Russia

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rabidtictac
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Re: Russia

Post by rabidtictac » Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:37 am

Sure seems to me like his intention is to annex all of the parts of Ukraine Russia controls now and then use that legal sidestep to finish taking over the rest of Ukraine. Y'know, so he can annex it.
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Kugelfisch
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Re: Russia

Post by Kugelfisch » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:18 am

Russia's stance about eight years ago and now has not changed once, at least officially. They want the Donbas, consisting of Luhansk and Donetsk, and Crimea to be recognized as separate republics, being part of the Russian Federation.

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That's the demand then and now.
Wether that's all Putin really wants is open for speculation but that's what Russia has stated they want and that's the separatist movements they have militarily supported.

You can well think they actually want more and you can state that the Russian Federation has engaged in an active war with Ukraine.
But technically it's just assisting separatist rebels fighting for independence. You know, like we did for Afghanistan and Syria.
That's why NATO can't engage without being the party to start a war and just assist a rebellion passively.

Is all of that wishy washy bullshit? Yes. But it's what we've done for decades now and no amount of calling it a military assault by the Russian Federation will make it any more true.
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VoiceOfReasonPast
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Re: Russia

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:26 am

Why are they making a referendum in Cherson and Zaporizhzhia, which have nothing to do with either the separatists or Crimea?
McGinnis wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:36 am
What I said, and repeatedly said, is that he does not want all of Ukraine. That has not changed. Western Ukraine is full of ethnic Ukrainians, He'd have a hard time controlling it if he were to take it over
I am sure Putin has nothing but deep respect for the territorial integrity of a country whose legitimacy he has denied multiple times.
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Le Redditeur
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Re: Russia

Post by Le Redditeur » Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:46 pm

Those "referenda" are a blatant and obvious maneuver to claim "muh territorial integrity" if Ukraine ever try to retake them back during the current war or later, I hope that's abundantly clear.

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Re: Russia

Post by McGinnis » Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:18 pm

VoiceOfReasonPast wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:26 am
I am sure Putin has nothing but deep respect for the territorial integrity of a country whose legitimacy he has denied multiple times.
Show me evidence Putin has designs on Western Ukraine and I'll eat my words. Until then, everything Kugel said was spot on

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Le Redditeur
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Re: Russia

Post by Le Redditeur » Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:47 pm

Yeah, because that makes the invasion so much better and justified.

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VoiceOfReasonPast
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Re: Russia

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:54 pm

He just wants a little bit of the Ukraine. They won't even miss it :3
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rabidtictac
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Re: Russia

Post by rabidtictac » Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:22 pm

What's the difference between Putin annexing half of Ukraine vs annexing all of it?

-He's already facing the same consequences either way.
-He's gone too far to pull back without losing face and probably his life.
-He's staked his regime on resolving Ukraine to his satisfaction.
-Those who would fight against him for taking all of Ukraine are the same who will fight over him taking half of it.

I think his plan was always to annex Ukraine after he saw the strong possibility they would be considered for NATO membership. He wants a buffer zone around Russia. Well, if neutral (not russian-owned) countries will not do that for him, he will create a new glorious Russian empire and do it himself.

If he just wanted to destroy Azov or whatever, he would have created a new border already, moved his troops there and begun peace talks. What he's doing now looks a lot more like shoring up his *current* territory gains for the winter, as he mass-recruits fodder to be trained during the colder months. In preparation for a massive push when warmer weather hits. If not a massive push (using his remaining veterans) before the cold weather hits for THIS winter, as well. He's locking in temporary lines, but with the intention to push and take the rest of Ukraine.

I'll happily concede you are right if Putin, at ANY point, permanently withdraws his forces from some part of Ukraine. If he says "okay, this part here is too far west. We don't want this part, you bitches can keep it" and just fucking leaves or whatever. I don't see that happening. It seems to me like Putin is committed to "solving" Ukraine by conquering it for good. He will crush the entire country and build a New Russian DMZ on the ashes. The purpose of which will be to serve as a buffer zone between the core Russian cities and the West.
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Kugelfisch
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Re: Russia

Post by Kugelfisch » Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:40 pm

Le Redditeur wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:47 pm
Yeah, because that makes the invasion so much better and justified.
Doesn't matter whatsoever. War needs no justification. Russia was big mad about the CIA coup and the people will have to pay for it.

Perhaps the Ukraine shouldn't have been a corrupt eastern block shithole for so long. Ukrainians used to be cheaper workers than Bulgarians, only outpriced by Lithuanians. That's how fucked the supposed "grain chamber" of Europe was.
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VoiceOfReasonPast
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Re: Russia

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:53 pm

Not just the grain chamber of Europe. Apparently the entire Third World is starving even harder than before because everyone got their grain from the Ukraine.
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