Russia

[McGinnis]

I mean, there was a hell of a lot of rage over Afghanistan and Iraq when we were early on into the wars

Yeah, among ordinary people. But nobody sanctioned the US, globalist corporations didn't pull all their business from US shores, they didn't kick US athletes out of major sporting organisations and events, they didn't seize the assets of American businessman without due process, they didn't stop teaching American literature at universities, they didn't stop playing American music at concerts, they didn't stop treating American patients at European hospitals, they didn't smash the windows of American owned businesses and basically ostracise Americans living abroad. Nobody gave a single shit, even though the central basis of the US complaint against Iraq and Afghanistan, that they have WMDs and that Bin Laden is hiding there respectively, were both complete bullshit

Contrast this with the response to Ukraine, which is not a Jeffersonian republic, which is not a bastion of liberal democracy in Eastern Europe. It's a corrupt, CIA controlled shithole. Zelensky is not a hero, like MSM makes him out to be, he's a puppet who operates probably 99% similar to how Putin himself operates (jailing journalists and his political opposition) and who's using his own people as, effectively, human shields and tried to light the fuse on WWIII numerous times to save his own skin. When you understand these things you get the sense that the international response has been somewhat...disproportionate

[Le Redditeur]

It has been disproportionate, but at the same time, the US acted on flimsy and/or outright fake but (on paper) "solid" principles: Afghanistan helped organize 9/11, Iraq has WMDs and that's a threat to millions, blah blah blah.

Russia's principles for their own invasion are, even when compared to that hogwash, unacceptable. Muh NATO missiles (as if they don't have NATO missiles on their doors already, and as if NATO was at the brink of launching an invasion of Russia just because), muh Nazis (while employing retarded inbred radical Chechen Muslims; also, despite the obvious parallels with the Nazi landgrabs of 1938 and 39), muh separatists (how well did he treated his own Russian separatists?), yadda yadda. The optics end up being that this invasion is even more unprovoked and unjustified than the US invasions in the Middle East, no matter how much of a corrupt shithole Ukraine is. I mean, are the Powers going to invade any corrupt shithole because it is corrupt and controlled by a foreign agency? Then I guess I better prepare for the inevitable invasion of the entire Latin America, because we're both corrupt and controlled by either Langley or Beijing (or both at the same time).

[Kugelfisch]

Are you saying what Putin is doing now is as fucking retarded as what the US did in Afghanistan?

No. What I am saying is that because it is not an invasion but rather the same gayops shit the big players have done forever, Ukraine is fucked. Direct support with NATO troops would make NATO the aggressor.

Yes, that's kinda silly but it's the bed they've made in the dust bowl.
Russia has laid the groundwork for this years ago with Krimea. NATO slept on it. That would've been the time to give Ukraine the support and we'd have another proxy war with Russia, like in Syria.

But now Russia proper is in there, not just their disguised rebels, and the Russian Federation has practically declared the rebel-controlled areas as part of the Federation.
We can send Ukraine some weapons and that's it. Shit's done.

The sanctions hit it hard but so it does the West and Russia won't just go under because it still has China to sell their stuff to.

Talks will be had, the "republics" will be declared won and made part of the Russian Federation, NATO will have to stop even the small support to fortify what ever will be left of Ukraine.

Was any of this smart by Putin? I think not. He might have been encouraged too much by the Afghanistan disaster and Sleepy Joe being a weak dumbass.
But this situation is not going to end with a fully intact Ukraine.

[RAPEMAN]

Oh my God... This fucking presidency.

[RAPEMAN]

Oh my God... This fucking presidency. The Ukraine is a controlled decoy.

[McGinnis]

It has been disproportionate, but at the same time, the US acted on flimsy and/or outright fake but (on paper) "solid" principles: Afghanistan helped organize 9/11, Iraq has WMDs and that's a threat to millions, blah blah blah.

They weren't solid on paper. If you invade Afghanistan because they 'helped' to organise 9/11, then why not Saudi Arabia, which had even more to do with the organising of 9/11? Afghanistan certainly wasn't about finding Bin Laden because Bin Laden, as it turns out, was in bloody Pakistan, not 15 miles away from Pakistan's answer to West Point. But of course, the US couldn't go to war with either of them because they were both sovereign nations and a big market for US arms. So Afghanistan it was, because they needed a scapegoat.

As for Iraq having WMDs, they didn't. There were, maybe, remnants of chemical weapons from their 90s weapons program but they didn't have anything usable, the sanctions had worked. The US would not have invaded Iraq if they actually did have WMDs, the whole thing was bogus.

Muh NATO missiles (as if they don't have NATO missiles on their doors already, and as if NATO was at the brink of launching an invasion of Russia just because)

NATO made a (verbal) agreement to Gorbachev they would not expand farther east, which they immediately broke when they offered membership to Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland. Is Putin just meant to trust that, if accepted into the bloc, NATO won't just bring their missiles into Ukraine the next day? As for 'oh it's not like they're going to invade Russia', these are the same idiots continually agitating for a no-fly zone over Ukraine, and who are arguing amongst themselves that Nuclear Winter would be survivable. They're a bunch of corrupt, bloodthirsty idiots who've never met a foreign country they didn't want to go to war with. Their verbal guarantees are worth exactly the paper they're printed on

If Ukraine were formally accepted into the bloc, it's all over. Now, we could argue about whether or not NATO were ever actually going to accept Ukraine, because it's a corrupt shithole, but clearly Putin didn't think he could take that risk.

I mean, are the Powers going to invade any corrupt shithole because it is corrupt and controlled by a foreign agency? Then I guess I better prepare for the inevitable invasion of the entire Latin America, because we're both corrupt and controlled by either Langley or Beijing (or both at the same time).

You seem to ignore that this is basically what the CIA has been doing since its inception.

Like I said, this whole situation is Cuba. It's not World War II. World War II happened because world leaders and the top minds in Britain and France were still fighting World War I. World War III is going to happen because the top 'minds' in NATO think everything is World War II and if they budge, even an inch, it's appeasement all over again. There was zero reason for Ukraine to be in NATO and a neutral Ukraine as a buffer really benefits us all.

Really, there's zero reason for anyone to be in NATO. It was created to combat Soviet aggression in response to their blockade of post-war Berlin. Once the Soviet Union fell, it should have been disbanded. But the American Military Industrial Complex kept it alive because they're immensely greedy and wanted to keep selling more and more weapons. So they kept it alive, expanded it and just went around creating conflicts to use as a marketplace to sell more weapons. Everybody's in NATO for different reasons and the whole thing is a farce. Now it's led to exactly the situation we're experiencing, which could have been avoided

[Le Redditeur]

You didn't understand what I said. I didn't claim America's justification were good in the world stage, only that they could be sold as "good" for PR reasons. Afghanistan helped killing thousands in a spectacular terrorust attack! (The fact that the terrorists had Saudi connections doesn't matter, shut up). Iraq is supporting terrorists and will deploy mustard gas in Israel! (Yeah, intelligence may be faulty on that, shut up). You may remember Bush didn't sell those wars as "invasions of some backwater countries in the Middle East", but as a "War on Terror" that had just knocked the WTC for the entire world to see, and Afghanistan and Iraq were part of the "Axis of Evil". We know for a fact that it was all cynical PR bullshit, but at the time, it could be used as a flimsy justification to say those invasions were in the interest of the entire world, including Russia and China (who had their own problems with Muslim radicals).

Compare that with unilaterally invading a fellow European country, who didn't do anything nor claimed to participate in anything against Russia. Political backroom dealings of Krusty the Klown or whoever was in charge will NEVER look as a reasonable cause for a war of aggression (because that's what it is, lets not play the bushite game here) in the eyes of the public. Ukraine didn't even had NATO missiles installed in its territories yet (unlike Cuba did in 62), only the possibility that it maybe, perhaps, one day in the future, if it pleases the US have such missiles.

I know Ukraine basically threw the Minsk agreements in the trash and that certainly played a huge part in Putin's decision to invade, but to the average person, even that seems really far-fetched. That's one of the reasons why the anti-Russian propaganda seems to be so effective with normalfags: when you distill thaw war to its core elements, it's Russia doing a surprise (not so surprising) invasion of a neighbor without good justification. The propaganda just overplays that element and throw in some Harry Potter/Avengers garbage references for good measure.

[McGinnis]

You didn't understand what I said. I didn't claim America's justification were good in the world stage, only that they could be sold as "good" for PR reasons

Which is completely irrelevant. the fact that America has a vast propaganda machine to sell its wars to the sheep and Russia is, for some reason, refusing to even fight the propaganda war doesn't change the fact that, by every objective metric, one is no worse than the other

[VoiceOfReasonPast]

>getting butthurt over verbal agreements being worthless

Is that what Puting keeps getting all "BETRAYAL!!" over? That the evil NATO didn't keep its promise?

[RAPEMAN]

>getting butthurt over verbal agreements being worthless

Is that what Puting keeps getting all "BETRAYAL!!" over? That the evil NATO didn't keep its promise?

This is just a reverse Cuban crisis if you want to break the situation down. NATO inducting Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia was pushing it, Ukraine would put NATO missiles on Moscow's doorstep.