Fighting Games

Talk about the life consuming, celibacy inducing hobby that is all the rage these days.
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Poonoo
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Re: Fighting Games

Post by Poonoo » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:03 am

rabidtictac wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:38 pm
"Good AI" in this case meaning AI that mimics player behavior. Older fightan games like Tekken 6 and Virtua Fighter 4 Evo used to do this. Modern fightan gayes are too preoccupied with trying to sell themselves as a faggy live service, so they give only a bare shell of modes (that all suck) to play alone.

Imagine if you could play a fighting game solo and actually learn skills while having fun. That almost never happens. Sure, an AI can never play exactly like a human, but most fightan games don't even fucking try. Fighting and racing games can both make use of replays in crafting ai that behaves in a humanlike way. But they'd rather tack on a shit "story" modo with AI that reads inputs, so single play is as useless as possible.
This is the biggest reason (other than shit netcode) why hardly any fighting game players go online relative to sales. Max said that playing against the AI actually makes you worse at the game and he's 100% right. The Ken Flowchart meme exists because that is a viable strategy against the AI since playing properly doesn't work when they do that input reading bullshit with RNG, so you find the best way to cheese it.

They try to bring in new players with tutorials but that is like reading your entire textbook in high school in one night. You are not going to process that much information that fast and you just end up overcomplicating everything. In other games the game will slowly teach you how to use it's mechanics with level design but fighting games just put you up against varying degrees of input reading bullshit. Modes like Tekken Force should be used to teach people the mechanics properly, because after a month everyone else online is leaps and bounds ahead of you.
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rabidtictac
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Re: Fighting Games

Post by rabidtictac » Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:45 am

Poonoo wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:03 am
rabidtictac wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:38 pm
"Good AI" in this case meaning AI that mimics player behavior. Older fightan games like Tekken 6 and Virtua Fighter 4 Evo used to do this. Modern fightan gayes are too preoccupied with trying to sell themselves as a faggy live service, so they give only a bare shell of modes (that all suck) to play alone.

Imagine if you could play a fighting game solo and actually learn skills while having fun. That almost never happens. Sure, an AI can never play exactly like a human, but most fightan games don't even fucking try. Fighting and racing games can both make use of replays in crafting ai that behaves in a humanlike way. But they'd rather tack on a shit "story" modo with AI that reads inputs, so single play is as useless as possible.
This is the biggest reason (other than shit netcode) why hardly any fighting game players go online relative to sales. Max said that playing against the AI actually makes you worse at the game and he's 100% right. The Ken Flowchart meme exists because that is a viable strategy against the AI since playing properly doesn't work when they do that input reading bullshit with RNG, so you find the best way to cheese it.


They try to bring in new players with tutorials but that is like reading your entire textbook in high school in one night
. You are not going to process that much information that fast and you just end up overcomplicating everything. In other games the game will slowly teach you how to use it's mechanics with level design but fighting games just put you up against varying degrees of input reading bullshit. Modes like Tekken Force should be used to teach people the mechanics properly, because after a month everyone else online is leaps and bounds ahead of you.
This is the biggest problem I have with fighting games as commercial releases. It's one thing at an arcade, where you can play random scrubs and you both improve gradually. But with fighting games, playing alone makes you fucking worse at the game. Add to this most console fighting games have pay-to-play online, so it's a live service like I said before. You can't play the *actual* game without a subscription fee, just like an MMO. Except there are free mmos and games like warframe. Even on consoles, warframe is free to play online iirc. But fighting games aren't.

So the solo modes make you actively more shit at the game the more you play them.
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"Just go play practice mode. I have 300 hours just in practice" says some fucking Tekken superplayer or FGC oldhead. No fucking shit you do. At the high tier of play, practice mode with custom settings can be "fun" for some players. Or sort of fun anyway. But no beginner wants to sit through that shit. It's tedious as all hell. And practice mode STILL won't teach you anything about how other human players play the game. In the current fighting game environment, only playing other players can teach you that. Now, if fighting games offered more tailored AI built around replays of expert players who have hundreds of recorded hours of game time to go off of, then fighting games could provide single-player content that wasn't totally useless to solo players. I know because I have a ton of hours in ghost match Tekken 6. It's super fun. You fight a match against a ghost and then you have a choice of 3 other ghosts to get matched with. Sure, they're all AI and kinda scrubby, and sometimes the AI will cheat inputs to counter you with bullshit (like ducking a jab perfectly). BUT! At least the devs tried. Imagine how much better AI in fighting games could be if anyone cared enough to throw money/time/talent at the problem.

Even fighting games that try to offer single-player modes end up failing because their AI is so shit that all the modes become worthless. When every mode uses the same input-reading, jank AI, every mode is unusable. You end up with a scenario where the game has zero value offline/in single play, and only dubious value online if the connections are poor. Because playing in large amounts of lag will make you a worse player too.

It's not a surprise to me that a lot of the best players in the FGC are from Japan, Korea or parts of the US with a large arcade scene. The current model for fighting games is still running off that arcade design and it works fine there. But it doesn't work at all on home consoles.

And you know what would actually help new players get better at the game? Look at the fucking tutorial videos on jewtube to find out. The tutorial mode for a fighting game should have a simplified teaching tool that gets new players into games faster. It should be something like, "oh, you're playing Ken? Here are Ken's 10 best moves. Here are some reasons why they're so good." And the fucking tutorial should have voice overs where they tell you about the character and the moves while you're playing. You shouldn't have to read text for ants to play a vidya gaem. They should hire gootecks or one of those guys to design and voice every line in the tutorial. Then include an easy button you can press to make him repeat the last thing he said. And show picture-in-picture with it. Make this teaching tool compatible with every offline gameplay mode so you can enable it whenever.

It should be some microsoft help assistant shit. "Hey, it looks like you're trying to throw a fireball. Want some help with that?" :lol: :lol: :lol: Except not annoying. You'd have to turn it on in options.

Finally, something that grinds my gears about fighting game tutorials is they never acknowledge tiers of either moves or characters. I have a couple of physical guides for tekken games (because I think they're neat to have) and the one for Tekken 5 DR was actually honest about tiers. Would straight up tell you which moves are good and which characters are super strong. Sure, tiers aren't a straightjacket, but they can be a helpful starting point for noobs to figure out which characters might be easier to pick up or which moves they should try to start learning to input reliably. A Mishima user who only plays solo will never learn that PEWGF is essential to his chosen character.
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mad bum
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Re: Fighting Games

Post by mad bum » Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:50 am

Why are niggers so good at fighting games?
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Complicity
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Re: Fighting Games

Post by Complicity » Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:56 pm

An even bigger problem for me than the lack of tutorials and shitty single player modes is the fact that they continue to build fighting controllers with the joystick on the left.
Joysticks were built to the left of the buttons in arcade machines as a cheap trick to make more money because most people is right-handed, there is no reason to continue to do that now.
Last time i checked those things on the Internet, all the models had the joysticks on the left, excluding one model which had the joystick and buttons built on 2 separate bases that could be attached the way you wanted.
And i still wouldn't buy it because there was no way to know if the joystick was inside a square shaft like the shitty Soyny one for the PS3, or inside a round shaft like the good ones.
Playing with regular console controllers instead?
Good luck playing advanced characters like Alex, Gouken or Zangief when you can't even input a Shoryuken properly.
mad bum wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:50 am
Why are niggers so good at fighting games?
Does LowTierNegro look good to you?
I also suppose that that arrogant sjw furfag, the one who went into an Internet slap fight with Memology and claimed that watching a pro-life woman being assaulted by Cuck Norris was funny, will decline and become a lolcow like Ninja, if he's still relevant at all that is.
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Kugelfisch
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Re: Fighting Games

Post by Kugelfisch » Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:58 pm

Never before have I heard someone wanting the stick on the right.
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VoiceOfReasonPast
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Re: Fighting Games

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:48 pm

Left-handed people are real, man.
rabidtictac wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:45 am
And you know what would actually help new players get better at the game? Look at the fucking tutorial videos on jewtube to find out. The tutorial mode for a fighting game should have a simplified teaching tool that gets new players into games faster. It should be something like, "oh, you're playing Ken? Here are Ken's 10 best moves. Here are some reasons why they're so good." And the fucking tutorial should have voice overs where they tell you about the character and the moves while you're playing. You shouldn't have to read text for ants to play a vidya gaem. They should hire gootecks or one of those guys to design and voice every line in the tutorial. Then include an easy button you can press to make him repeat the last thing he said. And show picture-in-picture with it. Make this teaching tool compatible with every offline gameplay mode so you can enable it whenever.
At least BlazBlue tutorials have the characters read their lines, including the instructor.
At least for the Japanese voice acting. No idea if the English has that voiced as well since I never play BB with English voices, so all I got out of it were waifus saying "Revolver Action~" and "Giri Giri Guardo" an fuckload of times.

And I'm not sure how well voice-acting during the tutorial gameplay portion would work, considering how characters in animu fighters are always shouting like a pig getting slaughtered.
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Kugelfisch
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Re: Fighting Games

Post by Kugelfisch » Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:41 am

VoiceOfReasonPast wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:48 pm
Left-handed people are real, man.
Never heard a lefty complain about that either.
It's not like playing guitar where the strumming requires more constitution and should be done with the dominant hand. It's more like driving a car where, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter what hand you operate the gearbox with or typing where it's equal.
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Complicity
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Re: Fighting Games

Post by Complicity » Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:54 am

Kugelfisch wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:41 am
It's more like driving a car where, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter what hand you operate the gearbox with or typing where it's equal.

For me it's like you say with Tekken, whose moves are performed by comboing buttons and eventually tilting the joystick in one direction.
The way special moves are executed in Street fighter and its clones, i would really prefer to use the stick with the same hand i use to operate the gearbox.
It's probably due to the fact that the only games i played at home as a kid were pc games, thus the keyboard was the controller and the arrows used to move were on the right.
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Re: Fighting Games

Post by wulfenlord » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:15 am

Fightan peaked with Rise of the Robots
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Re: Fighting Games

Post by Complicity » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:29 am

wulfenlord wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:15 am
Fightan peaked with Rise of the Robots One Must Fall: 2097
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