Books

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Rushy
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Re: Books

Post by Rushy » Wed May 23, 2018 4:07 am

Because destiny and prophecy and shit. He's the (Ultimate) Chosen One, you know the drill.

At the very least, his non-Kwisatz Haderach abilities are explained away as him having accumulated centuries of experience from his string of ghola lives. So it makes sense for him to be extremely capable.

It just doesn't make sense for him to be the protagonist.
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Re: Books

Post by Rushy » Wed May 23, 2018 4:42 am

I am curious to know though, why you label him as the least trustworthy? I don't recall him being shady aside from when he was Hayt.
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Kugelfisch
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Re: Books

Post by Kugelfisch » Wed May 23, 2018 12:56 pm

For one because he's a ghola. Right the first ghola instance of him should've been purged and that should've been it. For another because he isn't loyal, despite the constant claiming that he is. Every single version of him has tried to kill Leto II, one succeeded. He couldn't wait to fuck over the Bene Geserit either.
If anything, he should've been the antagonist. He's a complete non-character in Dune and garbage in all other books.

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Re: Books

Post by Rushy » Wed May 23, 2018 4:53 pm

Both of those reasons are brought up in God-Emperor though.
The Tleilaxu did try to screw with the Duncan gholas, but faced such heavy repercussions from Leto II that they didn't dare repeat this mistake. And 11 Duncans were killed before the Heretics incarnation survived.

As for his apparent lack of loyalty, that's likely from being mindfucked daily by both Leto II and the Bene Gesserit. Plus, I think the author meant him to celebrate traditional values rather than just be a follower sheep. It's like bringing back Captain Picard in a Mirror Universe esque future and expecting him to blindly follow Starfleet orders regardless.
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Re: Books

Post by Rushy » Wed May 23, 2018 5:04 pm

Amusingly enough, guess what fan favourite servant of Duke Leto who has literally the same backstory didn't get brought back as a ghola?
Because heaven forbid we get to flesh out Gurney some more by seeing him as an innocent child and then his actual self trying to cope in the future.

No, it's much more vital for the Bene Gesserit to bring back fucking Yueh.
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Re: Books

Post by Kugelfisch » Wed May 23, 2018 5:38 pm

Rushy wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 4:53 pm
Both of those reasons are brought up in God-Emperor though.
And they are handwavy shit.

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Re: Books

Post by Rushy » Wed May 23, 2018 8:56 pm

I did get the feeling like the writers were really stumbling around in the dark writing these sequels.
They were supposedly based on Herbert Sr's notes for Dune 7 and it feels like it, a very basic approximation of what the actual thing would have been like, with a bunch of their own shit added in to keep their comfort zone. It's certainly not nearly as confident as their prequels, where they always knew what the endgame was and stayed away from all the philosophical stuff that Frank seemed to love and they clearly didn't have a clue about.

I imagine the notes were very vague on the Enemy and heavy on the Bene Gesserit shit, because the Chapterhouse stuff with Murbella uniting the Matres and the Sisterhood and slowly taking control over mankind's defences rings closest to Frank's work.

Judging from the original books themselves, I'd say that superior Face Dancers, thinking machines, Scytale's nullentropy capsule of ghola cells and Duncan Idaho having some kind of universal significance were going to be a part of Dune 7. But the hows and whys got fucked up.
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Re: Books

Post by Kugelfisch » Thu May 24, 2018 3:46 pm

Frank himself liked to bring up things that would never be elaborated upon. For Messiah and Children I found that to be okay because towards the end in both books very unexpected stuff happens. In the other books this thing starts to become very tedious for me. Especially Ix was a disappointment. I thought I'd get something more about them but we just get a time skip of a couple of thousand years and "Ix is basically gone now lol".

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Re: Books

Post by Rushy » Thu May 24, 2018 3:55 pm

Kugelfisch wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 3:46 pm
Frank himself liked to bring up things that would never be elaborated upon. For Messiah and Children I found that to be okay because towards the end in both books very unexpected stuff happens. In the other books this thing starts to become very tedious for me. Especially Ix was a disappointment. I thought I'd get something more about them but we just get a time skip of a couple of thousand years and "Ix is basically gone now lol".
Ix appears in nearly every sequel-prequel book, so I've never really had a craving to find out more about it. But I forgot it never actually appeared in the originals.

The one thing that still confuses me is how Scytale went from a disposable Face Dancer in Children to a Tleilaxu Master in Heretics.
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Re: Books

Post by Kugelfisch » Thu May 24, 2018 4:07 pm

The explanation given is that the Masters are, for all intents and purposes, facedancers at least physically and that they sent one of their masters to have a verified eye-witness. It's a completely retarded non-explanation and exactly the kinda shit I was talking about with handwavy stuff. It's just pointless. Nobody needed Scytale to make a comeback, just like nobody needed Duncan to make a comeback. In fact, many things would've been more plausible if it was a new character entirely, maybe even a facedancer.

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