CRPGs

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VoiceOfReasonPast
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Re: CRPGs

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:12 pm

Huh, I heard about Darklands before, but didn't know it was real-time. Is probably rough, considering its age.

And BG and its derivatives are pseudo-realtime in that they have D&D turn-based combat on auto-pilot, which is why you can "miss" turns to AI decisions unless there's an option to auto-pause the game at the end of every round - which is still annoying as fuck.
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AdorableOtter
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Re: CRPGs

Post by AdorableOtter » Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:06 pm

That sounds more like an erratic friendly AI mechanics (or a straight up bug) of the origial game which was fixed later, rather than a broken real time mechanics. I don't remember BG's friendly AI being as bad as i have no idea what to do imma do nothing unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, even though they were definitely good either.

BG really needs mods to be a complete functional game otherwise everyone/everything is dumbfuck who just kamikaze under any circumstance.
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Fake turn-based stuff becomes more and more noticeable in higher levels because characters attack each other simultaneously regardless of the initiatives but honestly I don't mind that, maybe people should hit each other at the same time.

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VoiceOfReasonPast
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Re: CRPGs

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:22 pm

When I say the pseudo-relatime can cause you to "miss" turns to AI decisions, I mean how the AI decides for itself what to do before you can do it, which might not have been what you had in mind.
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Kugelfisch
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Re: CRPGs

Post by Kugelfisch » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:35 am

AdorableOtter wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:38 pm
Kugelfisch wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:37 pm
The Infinity engine games never were my cup of tea. I think in terms of strategic turn-based RPGs the Goldbox games ToEE and KotC are still the best out there. It's a shame many DHI will never pick them up because they look really aged.
FTFY.
I haven't played Knights of the Chalice but I'll politely disagree with Temple of Elemental Evil. It's great but I do prefer the Goldbox games. ToEE is based on a better version of D&D, though.
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rabidtictac
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Re: CRPGs

Post by rabidtictac » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:07 pm

VoiceOfReasonPast wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:22 pm
When I say the pseudo-relatime can cause you to "miss" turns to AI decisions, I mean how the AI decides for itself what to do before you can do it, which might not have been what you had in mind.
This, and if you do give directions to the AI, it might decide to wig out against some furniture instead of doing anything, thus causing you to die.

Dragon Age Origins does this quite a bit actually. The AI does not take optimal paths to enemies, which can cause you to die because the game has no difficulty curve. I played a ton of DA:O recently and I still stand behind the statement that the difficulty in that game is fucked. The early game is far and away the hardest part and full of unfair bullshit ambushes. The pathing being so flawed only makes it worse. The enemies that matter (the ones that kill you fastest) are mages and thus can't get stuck against shit or have their pathing break, and are often in advantageous ambush spots to begin with, so it's extra bullshit when the pathing refuses to let you attack a barricade you are RIGHT in front of, or pretends like you never told it to attack the dude 1 foot away from you.

In a game where every second matters, the AI will eat multiple of those seconds with its stupidity. You can manually walk your character around, and I do, but you can't manually attack. Even when MASHING A, you are forced to wait for the computer to figure out what you want to attack and to play the animation. It often doesn't do so fast enough. And remember how I said enemy mages can't have their pathing break? YOUR mages absolutely will when controlled by the player. They will demand to stand in 1 specific spot to use a fucking spell, even though the spell is a projectile that could be fired from anywhere.

KotoR was worse IIRC. I remember the game was very finicky about where you had to stand to initiate combat with any kind of melee weapon. Any kind of jankiness would cause you to lose the equivalent of several "turns" while your idiot character tried to orient itself to begin its turn.

My opinion about DA pathing isn't unique to me. Dudes like ninjaflips who play dragon age on the highest difficulty still bitch about the game eating their inputs, fucking up their pathing or refusing to attack a dude because they're not in exactly the right spot. The one thing DA2 did correctly was to remove a lot of that bullshit and make it so pressing a button = an attack no matter your positioning.
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Kugelfisch
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Re: CRPGs

Post by Kugelfisch » Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:30 pm

I dropped DA:O super fast. Played it for maybe three hours. Easiest uninstall of my life.
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AdorableOtter
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Re: CRPGs

Post by AdorableOtter » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:34 pm

Kugelfisch wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:35 am

I haven't played Knights of the Chalice but I'll politely disagree with Temple of Elemental Evil. It's great but I do prefer the Goldbox games. ToEE is based on a better version of D&D, though.
Are you talking about Temple+ or that unplayable buggy mess of an original game? They are totally different games. Goldbox games's 3D dungeon crawling + 2D tactical combat combination is an interesting design choice and provides better exploration experience but that's it imo.
VoiceOfReasonPast wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:22 pm
When I say the pseudo-relatime can cause you to "miss" turns to AI decisions, I mean how the AI decides for itself what to do before you can do it, which might not have been what you had in mind.
You have to turn off AI of spell casters in those games. That's a must. Also, auto pause at initial encounter (iirc it's turned on by default).

Giving them orders every single pseudo-turn sounds tedious, but at least it's not worse than turn-based because in turn-based you have to give orders to all the characters every single turn after all. (and also, spellcasters' only job is, like, throwing web/fireball/confusion/etc and then become irrelevant for the rest of the fight, you can just turn on AI again)

rabidtictac wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:07 pm

This, and if you do give directions to the AI, it might decide to wig out against some furniture instead of doing anything, thus causing you to die.

Dragon Age Origins does this quite a bit actually. The AI does not take optimal paths to enemies, which can cause you to die because the game has no difficulty curve. I played a ton of DA:O recently and I still stand behind the statement that the difficulty in that game is fucked.
I actually thought DA:O was ridiculously easy. I used a dual-wielding rogue who backstab everything at hardest setting, and basically he did every single killing job (while wasting some time on decapitation and shit due to 100% gore mod) while side kicks do heal/tanking.

Also, again, you can just turn off AI. AIs are totally okay at absorbing blows as a tank, or just shooting arrows and shit from the edge of the screen, you have to build party with that in mind if you wanna avoid the micro management. Just try something like shield guy NPC (tank), some healer (support) and a min-maxed damage dealer main char who gives zero shit about defense if you doubt me.

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rabidtictac
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Re: CRPGs

Post by rabidtictac » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:02 pm

Rogue is the easymode OP build so that explains why you thought it was easy. And yes, I'm well aware how to build a team but the game is still full of bullshit ambushes in the early game and your tank won't have longevity until you get certain skills on him that require level ups. BTW the enemy prioritizes the player-controlled character anyway, so until you have those skills on your tank that pull aggro, enjoy 10 guys ganging up on you and ignoring your tank.
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VoiceOfReasonPast
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Re: CRPGs

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:34 pm

This sounds like the classic D&D problem of people complaining that fighter blokes can't really draw aggro to prevent opponents from making a beeline towards the casters.
But then 4e introduced aggro mechanics, and people complained it was too much like WoW.
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Kugelfisch
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Re: CRPGs

Post by Kugelfisch » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:54 pm

AdorableOtter wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:34 pm
Are you talking about Temple+ or that unplayable buggy mess of an original game?
The original one, I guess. I've never modded it.
AdorableOtter wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:34 pm
Goldbox games's 3D dungeon crawling + 2D tactical combat combination is an interesting design choice and provides better exploration experience but that's it imo.
But it's a large reason of why it's a comfy winter game series for me.
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