CRPGs

Talk about the life consuming, celibacy inducing hobby that is all the rage these days.
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Kugelfisch
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CRPGs

Post by Kugelfisch » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:42 pm

With me playing M&M2 currently, Voice contemplating Wizardry and Otter playing M&M4, I thought a thread for us faggots playing old shit was in order.

I'll just copypaste my first post about
Might & Magic 2
I could've sworn that I've played it already but turns out, according to GOG Galaxy, I didn't. I'm not quite sure still since after the first session it didn't record my gameplay hours either since my mapping program uses a custom DOSbox instead of the one provided by GOG. From the second session in it recorded my playtime so I really am not sure anymore but I'm trending towards me not actually having played it before.

In any case, I'm playing it now. I didn't port my party from M&M 1 because that party is made of guys all at the same alignment and because imported characters only start at level 7 anyway.
So far, I've played about ten hours. But that includes a lot of reading the manual, parts of the clue book to look up class restrictions and getting a handle on the new version of Grid Cartographer.
Reflecting that, my guys are still level 1 and I've just mapped the starting city Middlegate.
M&M II - Middlegate - Ground Floor.png
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The bottom right part is the arena I haven't been to yet. I've been in the dungeon below the city, fought Orcs, a group of sixty (!) bats and finally got my shit fucked by jugglers.

I'm thinking about exploring the other cities first. Like in M&M 1, there's a portal to the next city and in that will be one for the next and so on. Trainers actually provide you with more hitpoints in the last city, which is why I held off on training.
My party consists of a Knight, a Paladin, a Thief, an Archer, a Sorcerer and of course a Cleric. All real neat and diverse with races, sexes and alignments to make sure that if I stumble upon restricted stuff at least one character can deal with it.

By the way, it has automap as well. Top left corner where the map symbol is resides Otto Mapper, who can teach you cartography. The fountain next to the Inn entrance at 4,8 gives you what is basically Wizard's Eye, giving you a top down map. It's a simple one but you can work with it.
I'm not sure about the colour theme for my map. I may change it down the line but so far it's the most intricate map I've made, minus the missing arena.
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Kugelfisch
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Re: CRPGs

Post by Kugelfisch » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:12 pm

So, the portal in Middlegate can only take me to Sandsobar. In M&M 1 you can find some goblin shitter behind a hidden wall to go to any city. I'm assuming that in Sandsobar I can find some other portal guy to take me to the next city.
Walking about in Sandsobar, I found two trainers. One for gambling, one for pickpocketing. I had my thief learn both. Then I encountered some zombie cats and they kicked my ass.

I guess I'll stick to Middlegate and the dungeon below, train my characters a bit and gear up before I attempt to go there. The dungeon has much easier enemies.
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The weak should fear the strong!
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In M&M, the Catholic church are still closer to their origin.
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VoiceOfReasonPast
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Re: CRPGs

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:14 pm

This game is ableist as fuck.

And even before starting probably, the thing that will most likely trigger me the most in Wizardry is the same thing that triggers me in all of these old CRPGs: Too much radomization in character creation and advancement.

I know they did that to stick close to muh D&D, but they should've known that it is too enticing to just reroll your character for half an hour or keep save-scumming till that stupid hit dice lands at its max value.
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Kugelfisch
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Re: CRPGs

Post by Kugelfisch » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:03 pm

Well, the rolling can be a pain. But M&M doesn't really have the stats improve after that from leveling. You increase stats with items and solving quests and such. The only thing training does is advance your character a level and give him more hit points.
I have to say that rolling in M&M2 was fairly well done. You roll until you've got a good spread of good numbers and you can exchange the numbers as much as you want. So a good roll is a good roll and not "Oh man, I wish I had that 19 in strength instead of charisma". Just switch them.

The Gold Box games have the best character creation. You can just set those numbers however you want. Quite frankly, you'd be a moron not to just put everything to max since the difficulty pretty much expects you to do so.


I'll keep on grinding in Middlegate for now. It's becoming pretty clear that the game expects me to be at level 6 or 7 as if I imported my party from M&M1. I get really odd difficulty spikes. I'll also get a good chance at finding a good daily offer at the local blacksmith to finally give my Paladin some better gear. My knight hits WAY harder than him, has a bit better AC (plus is better here, unlike with D&D where negative values are better) and monsters just love to gang up on my Paladin.
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Kugelfisch
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Re: CRPGs

Post by Kugelfisch » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:11 pm

The mindset of playing a really old CRPG is quite different to me than playing some new RPG. It's a lot like roguelikes (actual ones, not the current normalfag hipster definition). They don't look like much by today's standard but you'll be very surprised how in-depth they get, how much content they have and start to wonder why we can't have stuff like that today anymore.

For those that never played old CRPGs or roguelikes: It's like comparing Daggerfall to Skyrim. Daggerfall doesn't look great and even has pretty clunky combat going on but if you even just taken a look at the wiki and read all that stuff that's in it, Skyrim looks like a toddler's first wooden brick playset.
Not the absurd size of the map, but how many factions, gods, mechanics, unique quests, ways to interact with the world and in general roleplaying opportunities there are. Skyrim is offensively bland in comparison.
The difference is that the Gold Box titles, Wizardry and M&M have really awesome combat.
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VoiceOfReasonPast
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Re: CRPGs

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:19 pm

In my younger years, I was pretty surprised that Wizardry 7 had a turn-based combat system where you could tell your guys to swing their weapons differently, witch each variation changing your hit chance, armor penetration and damage.
Kugelfisch wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:11 pm
They don't look like much by today's standard but you'll be very surprised how in-depth they get, how much kahntent they have and start to wonder why we can't have stuff like that today anymore.
AAA developers pour too many resources into the sweet, sweet graphics. And you think the people who struggle with making their fancy Skyrim stable and bug-free can handle Dwarf-Fortress-tier world simulations without fucking up everything?

And why go through the effort of actually including depth int your game if you can either just make shit up (the Molyneux way), or give the illusion of depth (basically every walking simulator ever)?
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Kugelfisch
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Re: CRPGs

Post by Kugelfisch » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:52 pm

I don't expect Net-Hack levels of intricacy. But I never get that "Woah, I can do that?" feeling from new games anymore.
No finding out about monsters in Doom infighting. No thinking up something dumb in Net-Hack with it actually working like you'd expect IRL but not from a game. Not even finding something that just fucking breaks the game for shits and giggles.

The magic isn't just gone because I'm old and played a lot of shit. It's just not in the games anymore. Instead it's constantly "Oh, I can't do that anymore."
AvP 2010: Xenos can only jump to designated jumping places. The pounce is a locked-on, auto-tracking, canned animation with a set distance.
AvP²: You can jump at and stick to and walk on everything. You can jump anywhere and at everything and attack while jumping. There is no "pounce" funtion, instead you fly-by a nigger and deal damage according to where you hit the guy.

Daggerfall: Climb buildings, become a werehog vampire, buy a boat and use it as housing, craft utterly broken spells.
Skyrim: Here's your sandbox. You can barely do anything and none of that will affect anything. Combat's still complete shit, though.

Quake
: Strafe jump, rocket jump, bunny hop. Be fast just for the thrill of it if you've got the skill.
CoD: You can sprint sometimes and vault designated stuff. You're much less mobile than an ordinary human doing parcour IRL.

Net-Hack
: Kill a Cockatrice with a bow. Put on gloves and put it into your bag. Throw dead Cockatrice at store owner to stone him. Steal all his shit.
Skyrim: Put a bucket on the store owner's head. He won't notice because he's brain dead.

GTA: Get your car hijacked. Run after the cunt, get mugged. Kill the mugger, kill the cop that witnessed you. Deal with the Fuzz, drive to car bomb place. Put a bomb on the car. Get every car you can find and rig it as well. Blow up a dozen cars at once to fuck up the arriving cops. Kill military man and steal a tank. Wreak havoc, just because you got your car stolen.
GTAV: Punch a bum on a mountain without witnesses, get three stars, get shot by cops from a helicopter.

It's like nobody has fun ideas anymore to put into games just because "wouldn't it be cool?". It's tiresome.
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VoiceOfReasonPast
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Re: CRPGs

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:00 pm

Developers are afraid to put in interesting secrets anymore ('cause someone might not find them), and everything needs to be sanitized for muh potential multiplayer.

Playing older AvPs after all those modern FPS games is hilarious because of how fast they play. No atmospheric, Alien-themed survival horror can prepare you for a Xenomorph who suddenly rushes towards you at Mach 1.

Also i seem to recall an instance in San Andreas (or was it Vice City?) where an old lady threw me out of my car and stole it.
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Re: CRPGs

Post by AdorableOtter » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:30 am

Good CRPGs with some depth/complexity are still made but it's releases are scarce and far between. I'm rather optimistic as long as those indie devs are around.
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I think it makes sense major companies tend to make simplistic games considering video game market became huuuge thus they have to appeal to much bigger audience compared to 20~30 yrs ago.


VoiceOfReasonPast wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:14 pm

And even before starting probably, the thing that will most likely trigger me the most in Wizardry is the same thing that triggers me in all of these old CRPGs: Too much radomization in character creation and advancement.

I know they did that to stick close to muh D&D, but they should've known that it is too enticing to just reroll your character for half an hour or keep save-scumming till that stupid hit dice lands at its max value.

My experiecne with Wizardry is limited to 5 and 8 but from my experience, you can forget about rerolling in those games (and maybe in 1-3 too).

Wiz5 : I know everyone wants to become Ninja/Samurai/Lord and swing Muramasa/etc, but you're totally fine without them (especially in the early game) thus there is no need to aim for uber high initial stat points. . Also, thief can become Ninja without losing levels/experience in late game.

Wiz8 : This game is very different from the rest of the series. There is no random rolls in character creation and level-up. You have 100% control over stat/skill distribution (basically point-buy system).
Also, hybrid classes aren't like prestige/better classes anymore. They are decent (but not great) in both melee/spellcasting and that's it. Pure Fighter or Rogue is much better at dealing raw damage. This game is different but far more sophisticated / balanced compared to its predecessors imo.
It's a shame Japan has Wizardry IP but their Wiz clones are (afaik) all based on Wiz5 (with totally out of place animu elements) not 8.

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Re: CRPGs

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:45 pm

Well tbf, Wiz5 came out in the late 80s when computer gaming was a much bigger deal in Japan, while Wiz8 came out in 2001 and was considered to look relatively outdated.

Speaking of animu elements: I once got a CRPG-inspired JRPG dungeon crawler called Stranger of Sword City that is servicable enough, and the art and OST is pretty cool. Though for some reason there's a menu option that replaces all the high-quality NPC artwork with amateurish animu trash. Not sure what's up with that.


Also I'm pondering whether I should name my party after famous DHI mascots like Spoony or Carl.
Autism attracts more autism. Sooner or later, an internet nobody will attract the exact kind of fans - and detractors - he deserves.
-Yours Truly

Cucked in the name of Soy, Ye not complicit.

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