Why do most jrpgs and turn based rpgs still stick to 3 active party members?

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AngrySpoonySnob
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Re: Why do most jrpgs and turn based rpgs still stick to 3 active party members?

Post by AngrySpoonySnob » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:47 pm

CIANIgger wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:55 am


I hate Final Fantasy mostly, always on a story basis though. They've had some interesting systems of combat over the years, I give them that.

I recently start FF12 the zodiac age and in my memory this was one of the FF games that got shit on a lot. Of course weird me finds this the best FF Ive played in a long time lol.

Setting up gambits gives me a feeling of the pawn system in dragons dogma with more input from the player. And Half the time (so far) Ive had 3 chars and a guest char joining me so its like 3.5 active battle members at least, and its very easy to switch them out too.


As for the other posters; I was talking about why havent jrpgs made step forward in attempting this, sure there might be even older games that have multiple partymembers but those games are hardly playable for me anymore.
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Re: Why do most jrpgs and turn based rpgs still stick to 3 active party members?

Post by Kugelfisch » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:25 pm

M&M holds up pretty well, actually. You can always go for one of the later titles.
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Re: Why do most jrpgs and turn based rpgs still stick to 3 active party members?

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:20 pm

Don't the Suikoden games let you have 6 dudes and dudettes at once? That's probably as far as traditional JRPGs go.
AngrySpoonySnob wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:47 pm
Setting up gambits gives me a feeling of the pawn system in dragons dogma with more input from the player. And Half the time (so far) Ive had 3 chars and a guest char joining me so its like 3.5 active battle members at least, and its very easy to switch them out too.
I loved the Gambit System, but couldn't stand anything else about the game. Why won't anyone borrow this feature, dammit?!
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Re: Why do most jrpgs and turn based rpgs still stick to 3 active party members?

Post by MegaNigger » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:43 am

Dragon Warrior 3 would've been awesome with 5 party members. Then I could actually afford to take a Dealer with me for the perks! XD
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Re: Why do most jrpgs and turn based rpgs still stick to 3 active party members?

Post by AngrySpoonySnob » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:12 pm

VoiceOfReasonPast wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:20 pm
I loved the Gambit System, but couldn't stand anything else about the game. Why won't anyone borrow this feature, dammit?!

I have to ask, what did you not like about it? If it was that walking around and grinding took too long and was boring that might be solved in this pc version with the addition of turbo (2x or 4x speed).

I think this is one of the ugliest FF games though, specially after 10. Good thing I dont care about graphics but that was something that stood out to me, also seemed a lot of stuff was reused / changed from The Last Remnant. Wouldnt be suprised if those 2 games were developed in the same period.
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Re: Why do most jrpgs and turn based rpgs still stick to 3 active party members?

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:04 pm

I can see The Last Remnant connection. Though TLR has the more interesting world and race selection (I mean, come on, four-armed catguys who can dual-wield polearms?). But didn't TLR came after? Or was it just longer in development?

But it's not the grind I didn't like, but rather a whole load of stuff:
  • It being the first game I got set in Ivalice, I didn't have any Tactics boner to speak about. Then again, none of the Ivalice games are really all that connected anyways.
  • The protagonists didn't really do it for me. Sure, they're less autistic than the FFX cast, but they also didn't have an Auron-tier badass to keep me happy.
  • I found the tech level to be a bit too wonky in this iteration. Why aren't guns more common? Why do the airships look like spaceships? And why is there a single hoverbike that only exists for a single scene, never to be seen or heard from again?
  • The way the story is told results in some oddities, like having a showdown with a villain who, although shown a few times to the player, has never actually encountered the party at this point at all.
  • Not to mention how Gabranth makes a big deal out of hiding his face, when it was literally the first reveal / twist shown to the player.
  • The Star Wars references were out of control in this one. I legit lost my shit at Fantasy Bespin, and it was only partially because of "I AM BASCH FON RONSENBERG!"
  • Though I like Gambits themselves, the way they're presented in-universe is... odd. I could go on a long and autistic spergout about that. I mean, what are Gambits? Why do people want to buy them? Why are there shops dedicated to them? Why make them something you had to buy/find in the first place?
  • The License Board is a hot dumpster fire, using an ass-backwards design philosophy. Don't force me to spend points so I have the honor to use shit I've already found/bought. Give me cool perks that actually reward me for specializing.
  • Even if I want to play by the Board's rules, I still get triggered. I once had to frantically buy grids I didn't need because the weapon line for a character suddenly ended partway through, and I didn't know where it continued.
  • The Bazaar is probably the worst, most intransparent "crafting" system I've ever seen.
  • Why even have Analyze be a buff if it costs nothing and lasts basically forever?
  • There aren't really interesting abilities to buy aside from Steal and spells. There are some techs in the upper-right corner, but they're goofy nonsense (which, depending on your translation, doesn't even work as advertized). Gimme Jump or something, dammit.
  • The Summon system is probably the worst I've ever encountered in this franchise. I could understand early Espers being weaksauce later on, but they tend to already start out as useless.
  • The presentation is oddly lamer than FFX. Stuff that should be cool (like spellcasting or limit breaks) looks pretty meh instead.
  • All the DEEP LORE connected to places and bestiary entries had a high tendency to be boring or stupid.
  • Retarded conditions for certain sidequests and secrets that are obtuse for no other reason than Square-Enix really wanting you to buy the strategy guide.
At least some of the town tunes were catchy. And that scene were the bunnygirl goes apeshit is hilarious in an unintentional way.
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Re: Why do most jrpgs and turn based rpgs still stick to 3 active party members?

Post by AngrySpoonySnob » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:58 pm

I wont be using quote since the post is pretty long but here is my quick response on some of your points.

While Balthier isnt on Auron levels of badassery he is still quite awesome dont you think?
So far Im liking the characters and their development.
Balthier is a cool smooth talking pirate that seems like a great ally but you are not clear of his goals which is a trust issue.
Bascher quickly has to decide his loyalties and make up for past mistakes, pretty cookie cutter but not annoying or anything.
Vaan seems like he could be annoying at first but I just had a scene with him and Ashe that was pretty good and emotional with him opening up that all his childish nonsense of "i wanna be a sky pirate" and such were just ways to deal with the loss of his brother and he is realizing he needs to stop finding ways to run from it and get into a do something about it mode, so far im interested to see how he develops further.
Ashe has lost everything and needs to find a way to restore her empire but is outmatched and outnumbered on all sides and has to make deals and trust people who are not on her side just to get closer to a chance of ever even achieving establishing her KD again yet alone make it last, hooked there.
Fran is pretty meh just a crazy ass bunny chick or whatever furry nonsense and she flipped out earlier which isnt explained yet but ill forgive her because it seems SE spend years developing the perfect ass for her.
Penollo is also meh and the least interesting to me so far, just the standard female friend growing up of the main char who sticks along because she doesnt have any goals of her own.

I also got the star wars vibe pretty early on and the tech seems all over the place indeed (wakanda 2,0) but Im not too bothered by it also I dont really look for explainations behind all mechanics like stores for techs but its nice when a game does it. Doesnt lose points over it for me though.

The boards are probably something I either love or hate more once I get close to end game and fully understand its ups and downs, atm im just going along with it not really planning anything out besides job combinations.
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Re: Why do most jrpgs and turn based rpgs still stick to 3 active party members?

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:48 pm

The kids and the bunny are definitely the worst. Penelo is basically just a tutorial character who keeps following you for no reason after the actual protagonists join you.

Balther, Basch and Ashe are okay I guess, but I never got far enough for them to actual do cool stuff (did I mention there's too much walking and grinding between story events?). Balthier is probably the most fleshed out early on, but he's basically the exposition guy at that point, and when the stuff to exposition include "Here's Fantasy Bespin" or "These are basically Tusken Raiders", the game is kinda working against him.

(Though I like Vaan more in Dissida, 'cause that game really needs more protagonists who aren't antisocial fuckwards.)
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Re: Why do most jrpgs and turn based rpgs still stick to 3 active party members?

Post by AdorableOtter » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:07 pm

Kugelfisch wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:32 pm

Well, yeah, Wizardry and Might & Magic and such have six party members. It works for them because you don't have many combat animations, if any, and because you've got enough keys on a keyboard. When I played M&M 1 and 2 I've pretty much used the numpad exclusively.
For a console with a controller it would be a chore to select spells and such from a menue for so many party members.
I too think console's hardware limitation (controls and graphics) is one of the major reasons 3-4 members became popular. (IIRC, DQ and FF games fo NES had to deal with that exact limitation) Turn based and relatively complex combat system doesn't mix very well with relatively huge party.

I personally think 4 is the magic number even with simplistic system though. My favorite Wiz clone is Dark Spire and 4 party member setup in that game felt just right.
AngrySpoonySnob wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:47 pm
As for the other posters; I was talking about why havent jrpgs made step forward in attempting this, sure there might be even older games that have multiple partymembers but those games are hardly playable for me anymore.

Some major JRPG franchises are retaining the classic 4-6 party member formula. Your premise about most JRPGs being small party focused is just untrue.
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Re: Why do most jrpgs and turn based rpgs still stick to 3 active party members?

Post by Kugelfisch » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:17 pm

AdorableOtter wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:07 pm
I too think console's hardware limitation (controls and graphics) is one of the major reasons 3-4 members became popular. (IIRC, DQ and FF games fo NES had to deal with that exact limitation) Turn based and relatively complex combat system doesn't mix very well with relatively huge party.
Consoles are definitively the reason. When home computers were more popular in Japan they mostly made Wizardry clones. It's really what all jrpgs were back then and arguably still is the main influence on their scene.
AdorableOtter wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:07 pm
I personally think 4 is the magic number even with simplistic system though. My favorite Wiz clone is Dark Spire and 4 party member setup in that game felt just right.
Depends on the game. M&M really needs all six party members. You'd have to sacrifice too much utility. I also like the large mob sizes, which you'd have to make smaller or turn into cannon fodder it the game had fewer party members.
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